Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?



  • How much interest would there be there in a Cyberpunk MU*? I've noticed that Cyberpunk Red is being released this summer (in anticipation of the CDPR Cyberpunk 2077 game), which seems like CP 2020 rules with a facelift.

    I got as far as building a 5th edition Shadowrun MU* but never opened the doors once I started really digging into the Matrix and realized how terrible the Matrix rules were. 6th Edition appears completely unsalvageable -- much of that work on the never-opened SR site could be refactored into a CP game though.

    Are there any redflags about the Cyberpunk (Interlock? Fuzion?) game system that make it unsuitable for a MU*? Too crunchy? Not crunchy enough?



  • @Reason I'm a giant cyberpunk nerd. I still even play on Cybersphere.

    So I am definitely interested in anything Cyberpunk.



  • I dunno about Red, but Fuzion is pretty crunchy. It also has a decent amount of room for adding your own stuff... ironically, you could tack on a Shadowrun mod out of what was supplied with the basics of Fuzion, from what I recall.

    What bits of the SR5 Matrix was horribad?



  • @Jennkryst said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

    I dunno about Red, but Fuzion is pretty crunchy. It also has a decent amount of room for adding your own stuff... ironically, you could tack on a Shadowrun mod out of what was supplied with the basics of Fuzion, from what I recall.

    Do you think it's adequately crunchy for a MU*? I'll be honest, the flat probability distribution of single die game systems always made me a little skeptical -- especially when you have like a 10% chance of critically failing at any given task.

    What bits of the SR5 Matrix was horribad?

    It's been a few years so don't quote me, but working from memory I feel like it was a combination of the parts of the design decisions around the flat security architecture in conjunction with the hand-wavey unreachable "deep matrix" -- not that I completely object w/ flat security architecture, as it's fairly prevalent in modern cloud services, but it lent itself to these weird nested permission hierarchies that made things super silly in practice because it adopted all the flatness with none of the zero-trust.


  • Pitcrew

    I liked that one server that had a coded internet/matrix/cyberspace mechanic and corporations that actually designed and built products. I forget it's name and it wasn't around long sadly, but I liked some of its ideas.



  • @Reason It was the Bubblegum Crisis RPG, same rules for Mekton I think? Lots of derived stats, like weight limits for encumbrance and jump distance and other stuff. Obviously, because it was heavy on a cyberpunk anime setting with powersuits, there was a lot of stuff revolving around the specific setting and designing your own murdersuits.

    There were two options, either a d10 or 3d6... and maybe a d20 one, I forget, and the book is very far away, upstairs, and I am teh lazy. At least 3d6 rolls would make the crit-fail likelihood smaller?

    AS FOR SR5... I admit I didn't dig deep enough to learn all the matrix stuff; I know it changed from SR4 but never figured out how much. Denver is ADAMANTLY 3rd, but there's too much bad blood for me to feel like putting in the work to get involved there again, and Mildly Constructive ain't the section for me to dish out that hot gossip.



  • @Jennkryst said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

    @Reason It was the Bubblegum Crisis RPG, same rules for Mekton I think? Lots of derived stats, like weight limits for encumbrance and jump distance and other stuff. Obviously, because it was heavy on a cyberpunk anime setting with powersuits, there was a lot of stuff revolving around the specific setting and designing your own murdersuits.

    There were two options, either a d10 or 3d6... and maybe a d20 one, I forget, and the book is very far away, upstairs, and I am teh lazy. At least 3d6 rolls would make the crit-fail likelihood smaller?

    Oh, interesting. 3d6? Yeah, really anything that gives you non-linear probability distribution tends to hold my attention longer than 1dx systems. I'd read about some folks that did a 2d6 implementation of the 1d10 system but treated 6's as 0s. Gives you the classic 2d6 curve across a distribution of 0 - 10, and only 0s (<3% of outcomes) were critical failures.

    That said, there's something to be said for just taking a vanilla system off the shelf and using it. That way everyone knows what they're in for, warts and all.

    AS FOR SR5... I admit I didn't dig deep enough to learn all the matrix stuff; I know it changed from SR4 but never figured out how much.

    There were some positive changes, but it was still unworkable. Personal opinion the Matrix hasn't really ever been usable in Shadowrun. In Third edition and earlier, it was actually pretty tight, it was just solo-run. So like, functional and technically tight, but a mini-game while everyone else got pizza. In 4th edition and beyond, the objective to bring everyone together into the same initiative pass was noble but...

    Denver is ADAMANTLY ...

    Ridiculous (in a completely constructive way). Finished that thought for you. ;)


  • Pitcrew

    I'm not intimately familiar with big-c Cyberpunk, but I've heard a few things about it that make me apprehensive about it, such as changes to your body reducing your.. humanity points, or something like that? Seems a little problematic, but potentially something that could be changed up when making it suitable for a MU*.

    I've only been at it for a few months or so now, but I've been a little disappointed at the lack of futuristic settings in games that I've found advertised. They can't all be WoD and medieval settings, can they?



  • RE: System
    My TT group uses Shadowrun Anarchy and we like it quite a bit. Rules lite and fast paced.



  • @goalcam Cyberpsychosis is weird. It makes sense in Shadowrun, because magic and souls and junk.


  • Pitcrew

    I'm always down for Cyberpunky type things.


  • Pitcrew

    @Jennkryst Cyberpsychosis has always been a staple of the Cyberpunk genre, from Neuromancer onwards. It's also a physical representation of the overall genre theme of the dehumanizing effects of technology.

    Speaking as a player, I'd love for an RTal Cyberpunk RED game. The Jumpstart box is good, but missing some of the 'side' Roles like Cop, Corp, and Media. Current info is that the full game will be out in June.



  • @Runescryer said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

    Cyberpsychosis has always been a staple of the Cyberpunk genre, from Neuromancer onwards. It's also a physical representation of the overall genre theme of the dehumanizing effects of technology.

    It's also an ableist relic, imo. I think society has discarded a lot of the pretty ugly fear and rejection of prosthetics that we carried close to forty years ago when Gibson wrote Neuromancer.

    But I'm a filthy transhumanist so what do I know ¯_(ツ)_/¯



  • @Wizz said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

    It's also an ableist relic, imo.

    Perhaps in part. It was also an important game balance mechanic though in Shadowrun, to keep people from just chroming themselves with everything under the sun and becoming an unstoppable cyborg. (Or worse, an unstoppable magician cyborg.) At least for awhile until they started breaking their own rules with cyberzombies and otaku and other silliness.



  • @faraday said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

    @Wizz said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

    It's also an ableist relic, imo.

    Perhaps in part. It was also an important game balance mechanic though in Shadowrun, to keep people from just chroming themselves with everything under the sun and becoming an unstoppable cyborg. (Or worse, an unstoppable magician cyborg.) At least for awhile until they started breaking their own rules with cyberzombies and otaku and other silliness.

    If you can otherwise turn yourself into an unstoppable cyborg with the options the game provides, a balancing mechanic that punishes the player for picking what's available feels weird to me. Why not just make cyborgs more stoppable instead?

    Some settings assume a full-body conversion is actually more or less commonplace, like Ghost In The Shell. Major Kusanagi and Batou were pretty much the opposite of invincible.



  • @Wizz said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

    If you can otherwise turn yourself into an unstoppable cyborg with the options the game provides, a balancing mechanic that punishes the player for picking what's available feels weird to me. Why not just make cyborgs more stoppable instead?

    I don't really get the argument. It's like saying: "Why punish players by not letting them take every skill and attribute at max level". It's just a game balance limit with a bit of in-universe fiction to justify/explain it.



  • @faraday said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

    @Wizz said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

    If you can otherwise turn yourself into an unstoppable cyborg with the options the game provides, a balancing mechanic that punishes the player for picking what's available feels weird to me. Why not just make cyborgs more stoppable instead?

    I don't really get the argument. It's like saying: "Why punish players by not letting them take every skill and attribute at max level". It's just a game balance limit with a bit of in-universe fiction to justify/explain it.

    It's not like that, though. You can't just take every skill and attribute at max level, that doesn't make sense system-wise or fluff-wise.

    You could conceivably become a total-conversion cyborg in Shadowrun's universe, it's just a matter of installing the parts? But there's this arbitrary point total mechanic that says, "no, you can't get that prosthetic eye, that's too many Soul Point Deductions."

    Because the prosthetics themselves are overpowered and break the game balance if you allow someone to get all of them or add them on top of other powers, etc.

    It is a mechanic that makes sense in Shadowrun, it just doesn't anywhere else.


  • Pitcrew

    It depends on how powerful cybernetic augmentation is and how commonplace it is. If a cybernetic arm can punch through Superman's chest, you need to balance that so all the non-Doomsday-armed people aren't ridiculously underpowered or have it so that everyone is walking around with cybernetic arms.



  • @Wizz said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

    It is a mechanic that makes sense in Shadowrun, it just doesn't anywhere else.

    Someone with All The Things (tm) in any system is probably going to be overpowered. Most games have some limit to keep you from learning all the spells, or getting all the gear, or having all the skills. All we're talking about here is an in-universe explanation as to why (you lose your humanity and go insane and are no longer playable) rather than just imposing an arbitrary point cutoff.

    And part of it stems from a world-building desire not to have terminators running around. It wasn't in line with the vision of the setting, even though it could have been a natural consequence of the technology. That may or may not fit in any other cyberpunk setting depending on what you were going for.



  • @Runescryer said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

    @Jennkryst Cyberpsychosis has always been a staple of the Cyberpunk genre, from Neuromancer onwards.

    Has it, though? Molly has a flat affect and is cybered, sure, but we're supposed to think that the mental issues come from her traumatic backstory. It's not really a thing in other books from those years at all.

    Cyberpsychosis was an invention of the tabletop RPG.


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