What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?




  • Pitcrew

    @Admiral I voted 1e but I'd put a thing on it that I just hate the way 2e does XP. With beats and conditions and aspirations and all those systems.

    If you did 2e but just had a slow trickle of XP like most games have done without having to manage a million aspirations and conditions it'd be swell.



  • @Livia That's... actually exactly how I feel. Aspirations slow down a MUSH. They're fantastic for tabletop but managing them on a big game seems like it'd be daunting as hell. Maybe have aspirations that are optional, but people can only get X amount of XP per week from them?


  • Pitcrew

    @Admiral said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    @Livia That's... actually exactly how I feel. Aspirations slow down a MUSH. They're fantastic for tabletop but managing them on a big game seems like it'd be daunting as hell. Maybe have aspirations that are optional, but people can only get X amount of XP per week from them?

    Maybe. I mean aspirations as RP goals are obviously good. When it's just little things for 1/5th of an XP that you're expected to do quite often I personally just get tired of coming up with them. And I am 'gamey' enough that if I don't keep coming up with them I feel like I'm missing out on potential xp.

    And then churning through short term aspirations to keep the xp up starts to overtake actually just playing and telling a story and. Well, I haven't RP'd for over a month now, so ;)



  • @Livia Yeah. Maybe cap them at... completing one aspiration a week? That way you can get 1/5 of an XP once a week.


  • Tutorialist

    @Admiral said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    @Livia Yeah. Maybe cap them at... completing one aspiration a week? That way you can get 1/5 of an XP once a week.

    We went with 'cap overall xp from any source'. Personally, I think Aspirations are good. Nobody ever bothers with Conditions anyway so it's not like that's a huge drag. But Aspirations give you something to strive, and let you drive your own story forward without having to wait on staff to run shit for you.

    You take those away, and you're just making more work for yourself in the long run, as players get bored that there is nothing for them to do and not enough plot but they're too busy to run PrPs…

    That's a choice you want to make very carefully.



  • @Derp Oh definitely. The first step is to identify what players view as a hindrance to their fun, mechanically. Then stripping it down. Limiting XP comes after that.


  • Pitcrew

    @Derp said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    @Admiral said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    @Livia Yeah. Maybe cap them at... completing one aspiration a week? That way you can get 1/5 of an XP once a week.

    We went with 'cap overall xp from any source'. Personally, I think Aspirations are good. Nobody ever bothers with Conditions anyway so it's not like that's a huge drag. But Aspirations give you something to strive, and let you drive your own story forward without having to wait on staff to run shit for you.

    You take those away, and you're just making more work for yourself in the long run, as players get bored that there is nothing for them to do and not enough plot but they're too busy to run PrPs…

    That's a choice you want to make very carefully.

    I hate short term aspirations. Every time I've done 2e character gen coming up with 'aspirations' in the system has always been my stumbling point. And then I get people telling me I should be completing 3-4 short term asps per WEEK and I'm wondering if I ever have time for anything else.



  • @Livia said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    @Derp said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    @Admiral said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    @Livia Yeah. Maybe cap them at... completing one aspiration a week? That way you can get 1/5 of an XP once a week.

    We went with 'cap overall xp from any source'. Personally, I think Aspirations are good. Nobody ever bothers with Conditions anyway so it's not like that's a huge drag. But Aspirations give you something to strive, and let you drive your own story forward without having to wait on staff to run shit for you.

    You take those away, and you're just making more work for yourself in the long run, as players get bored that there is nothing for them to do and not enough plot but they're too busy to run PrPs…

    That's a choice you want to make very carefully.

    I hate short term aspirations. Every time I've done 2e character gen coming up with 'aspirations' in the system has always been my stumbling point. And then I get people telling me I should be completing 3-4 short term asps per WEEK and I'm wondering if I ever have time for anything else.

    This is where I am and I really do feel there's two camps.

    I feel like short-term asps reward people who can RP more frequently as opposed to those that can't. Particularly those that can RP more frequently while coming up with all those weird dorky ideas like 'Wave at someone!' 'Sip coffee' 'See a new face'

    I feel short-term asps are one of those things that work in TT but not in MU.

    Just up the amount of weekly XP to 2 and get rid of short-terms, IMO. Increase beats earned for PRPs, encourage people to use conditions more. But get rid of short-term asps.


  • Tutorialist

    @Livia said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    @Derp said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    @Admiral said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    @Livia Yeah. Maybe cap them at... completing one aspiration a week? That way you can get 1/5 of an XP once a week.

    We went with 'cap overall xp from any source'. Personally, I think Aspirations are good. Nobody ever bothers with Conditions anyway so it's not like that's a huge drag. But Aspirations give you something to strive, and let you drive your own story forward without having to wait on staff to run shit for you.

    You take those away, and you're just making more work for yourself in the long run, as players get bored that there is nothing for them to do and not enough plot but they're too busy to run PrPs…

    That's a choice you want to make very carefully.

    I hate short term aspirations. Every time I've done 2e character gen coming up with 'aspirations' in the system has always been my stumbling point. And then I get people telling me I should be completing 3-4 short term asps per WEEK and I'm wondering if I ever have time for anything else.

    They don't really have to be a total slog. They don't even have to be incredibly detailed. You can put in generalizations and work them out just fine.

    So if I had to come up with two short-term aspirations for a werewolf, I might go with:

    1. Talk to a werewolf I haven't met.
    2. Do a scene in non-human form.

    For a vampire, this could be:

    1. Resist the urge to feed at an inopportune time.
    2. Get a feel for how the local Harpy operates.

    Basically, think of what you would want to do with your character anyway, and make those an RP goal to strive for. Get rewarded. Always have something to look forward to, even if it's routine stuff.


  • Pitcrew

    @Derp said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    @Livia said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    @Derp said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    @Admiral said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    @Livia Yeah. Maybe cap them at... completing one aspiration a week? That way you can get 1/5 of an XP once a week.

    We went with 'cap overall xp from any source'. Personally, I think Aspirations are good. Nobody ever bothers with Conditions anyway so it's not like that's a huge drag. But Aspirations give you something to strive, and let you drive your own story forward without having to wait on staff to run shit for you.

    You take those away, and you're just making more work for yourself in the long run, as players get bored that there is nothing for them to do and not enough plot but they're too busy to run PrPs…

    That's a choice you want to make very carefully.

    I hate short term aspirations. Every time I've done 2e character gen coming up with 'aspirations' in the system has always been my stumbling point. And then I get people telling me I should be completing 3-4 short term asps per WEEK and I'm wondering if I ever have time for anything else.

    They don't really have to be a total slog. They don't even have to be incredibly detailed. You can put in generalizations and work them out just fine.

    So if I had to come up with two short-term aspirations for a werewolf, I might go with:

    1. Talk to a werewolf I haven't met.
    2. Do a scene in non-human form.

    For a vampire, this could be:

    1. Resist the urge to feed at an inopportune time.
    2. Get a feel for how the local Harpy operates.

    Basically, think of what you would want to do with your character anyway, and make those an RP goal to strive for. Get rewarded. Always have something to look forward to, even if it's routine stuff.

    I just don't find this fun.


  • Tutorialist

    @Auspice said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    Just up the amount of weekly XP to 2 and get rid of short-terms, IMO. Increase beats earned for PRPs, encourage people to use conditions more. But get rid of short-term asps.

    2xp a week is a ludicrously high amount for a 2E game. You will get ridiculous monsters very fast, because people will figure out how to hit it every. Single. Time.

    I speak from experience. You will hate yourself if you make that your standard. You really want it to go slower.


  • Pitcrew

    @Livia said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    @Derp said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    @Livia said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    @Derp said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    @Admiral said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    @Livia Yeah. Maybe cap them at... completing one aspiration a week? That way you can get 1/5 of an XP once a week.

    We went with 'cap overall xp from any source'. Personally, I think Aspirations are good. Nobody ever bothers with Conditions anyway so it's not like that's a huge drag. But Aspirations give you something to strive, and let you drive your own story forward without having to wait on staff to run shit for you.

    You take those away, and you're just making more work for yourself in the long run, as players get bored that there is nothing for them to do and not enough plot but they're too busy to run PrPs…

    That's a choice you want to make very carefully.

    I hate short term aspirations. Every time I've done 2e character gen coming up with 'aspirations' in the system has always been my stumbling point. And then I get people telling me I should be completing 3-4 short term asps per WEEK and I'm wondering if I ever have time for anything else.

    They don't really have to be a total slog. They don't even have to be incredibly detailed. You can put in generalizations and work them out just fine.

    So if I had to come up with two short-term aspirations for a werewolf, I might go with:

    1. Talk to a werewolf I haven't met.
    2. Do a scene in non-human form.

    For a vampire, this could be:

    1. Resist the urge to feed at an inopportune time.
    2. Get a feel for how the local Harpy operates.

    Basically, think of what you would want to do with your character anyway, and make those an RP goal to strive for. Get rewarded. Always have something to look forward to, even if it's routine stuff.

    I just don't find this fun.

    To clarify, the problem isn't this. At first, those are fine aspirations. But now I'm two-three days into my new character and maybe I've managed one of those aspirations because they're short term. Now I have to come up with another. And another. And another. I just wanna play.



  • @Derp said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    @Auspice said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    Just up the amount of weekly XP to 2 and get rid of short-terms, IMO. Increase beats earned for PRPs, encourage people to use conditions more. But get rid of short-term asps.

    2xp a week is a ludicrously high amount for a 2E game. You will get ridiculous monsters very fast, because people will figure out how to hit it every. Single. Time.

    I speak from experience. You will hate yourself if you make that your standard. You really want it to go slower.

    And yet, on most games, people making full use of short-terms (as 'recommended') will be earning 2XP per week.



  • If 1e XP curve is used, can we just have a pile of XP instead of 5/4/3//11/7/4 dots? I grow tired of min-maxing for XP efficiency.



  • @Jennkryst said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    I grow tired of min-maxing for XP efficiency.

    Then don't.



  • @Tinuviel said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    @Jennkryst said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    I grow tired of min-maxing for XP efficiency.

    Then don't.

    I can't control the weirdly selective OCD.


  • Tutorialist

    @Auspice said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    @Derp said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    @Auspice said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    Just up the amount of weekly XP to 2 and get rid of short-terms, IMO. Increase beats earned for PRPs, encourage people to use conditions more. But get rid of short-term asps.

    2xp a week is a ludicrously high amount for a 2E game. You will get ridiculous monsters very fast, because people will figure out how to hit it every. Single. Time.

    I speak from experience. You will hate yourself if you make that your standard. You really want it to go slower.

    And yet, on most games, people making full use of short-terms (as 'recommended') will be earning 2XP per week.

    Which is exactly why I said this is too high. I've been on the other end of this. It doesn't end pretty. You get minor gods in no time flat.



  • @Derp gave some great example aspirations.

    I think the problem with aspirations is sometimes the way they are approved or disapproved in a mush.

    A lot of times I think the words from the core book are forgotten and players/staff think some things are "too easy", but honestly as long as they're active goals, they should be fine.

    From the book some sample short term aspirations are:
    Find a new job.
    Find out why my sister hasn’t called me back.
    Get beat up by the school bully.
    Go on a date with the new guy at work.

    The problem I think people have in new games with their first PC is that if they don't have a chance to talk to other people or read about the current state of things, its hard to come up with specific game aspirations (Look into why ghosts behave strange around the house on Elm). You still could kick off with things you want to see happen: Meet up with local vamps in Elysium, Feed from a changeling, Create a supernatural safe space where single supers can hookup without being judged and/or murdered.

    In a mush environment it shouldn't be a problem to put in aspirations for what you're planning to do in RP, or if there are dedicated Story Tellers they can see what types of things to include in a scene/event you are participating in. If I just met Player B and I want to romance them, a short term asp of "Kiss Ginger" shouldn't be seen as "bad". Its what is being aspired to.

    I always try to remember these two blurps from the core CofD book when working with aspirations:

    Aspiration - One of a player's goals for her character. An Aspiration can be something the character seeks out, or something the player wants to see happen to the character.

    In addition to your concept, also consider your character’s Aspirations. These are goals that your character wants to accomplish, or stories and events that you, as the player, want to see happen during your character’s story. Thinking about your Aspirations early on, as part of your character concept, helps to make sure that your character is active, and that there are story hooks to get your character involved immediately. You can also use Aspirations as a way to connect player characters, by giving them similar goals.


  • Pitcrew

    @Derp said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    @Auspice said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

    Just up the amount of weekly XP to 2 and get rid of short-terms, IMO. Increase beats earned for PRPs, encourage people to use conditions more. But get rid of short-term asps.

    2xp a week is a ludicrously high amount for a 2E game. You will get ridiculous monsters very fast, because people will figure out how to hit it every. Single. Time.

    I speak from experience. You will hate yourself if you make that your standard. You really want it to go slower.

    NOLA's cap is 4xp a week - 1xp base, 3xp from plots and aspirations.

    People hit it once in a blue moon, even AFTER I published the Guide To Earning Beats and our +beat jobs quadrupled. We've been open for a little more than two months and the average XP is 15.83 (we start at 10xp if you write a background), and the highest-XP people all hover around 20, with the top 2 being the only outliers (at about 30). Oddly, neither of the two 30xp characters are particularly combat oriented (one of them is a mortal, the other a vampire with middling combat stats). Though we have a ridiculously low concentration of combat characters on NOLA that confuses me in the first place. That DOES average out to about 2.5xp a week for two characters. (One of those players has a second character in the top ten for XP.)

    The people who cap don't cap consistently, and very few people EVER cap, at 4xp, for us. I figure we WILL have ridiculous monsters in a year or so (we only had ONE ridiculous monster the first time around on NOLA - it was me, on my Beast, Marcus - at 129xp, he was horrific and why we don't have Beast this time around), but I figure if we stay open that long it'll be an okay problem to have, and I have ideas for incentivizing people to retire dinosaurs and do new stuff.

    My own obsessive number-tracking aside, I am excited about the possibility of you doing a 2e project, @Admiral, if there's anything we can do to help. I can't volunteer their time, but Mel would probably be up for helping you make aspirations and +beat caps work however you want them to if you're using Thenocode.

    ETA: I think the secret to how NOLA 1 (and hopefully NOLA 2) haven't gotten lots of hyper-focused combat monsters is that we have a (pretty short) wait time policy. I think that people tend to want to spend their XP pretty quick as they get it, which leads to spending 1 or 2 xp here and there on whatever's relevant and not on cooldown. This is reflected most, IMO, in how few people ever raise their Supernatural Tolerance trait. A rather large portion put it at 3 at CG then say "good enough" for their character's whole career. Once you've saved up 5xp, that could be five dots of merits. Two skills and a specialty. An attribute and a specialty/merit. Very few people make it to 4 or 5 unspent xp, ever.

    (Of course, we also have a dude with TWELVE unspent xp. There are all kinds.)


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