GOTV on Fallcoast
Edit: Let me make this clear, the point of the following is to try and elicit an apology from the person in question for assuming I was attempting to avoid IC consequences and show that I did not state or have the intent to avoid IC consequences.
The following in an unedited log of a conversation I've had with a Staff on Fallcoast. I've included everything I sent including the words in a mumail sent to that staff.
You paged Teuton with 'You can't get Consilium Status as an Apostate?'
Teuton pages: you can, but people will know you exist. councilors and hierarchs will know you're an apostate and you exist. getting consilia status means announcing yourself to the council.
You paged Teuton with '1, when I created you couldn't not have consilium status. 2, when I created you couldn't be an Apostate (thus couldn't claim it ICly) 3, if either of these options were to be had, I would have had Lucy introduced to the Consilium as an Apostate. As it was, when I did introduce myself I didn't mention an order. So because of these circumstances, I would like to retroactively have been introduced into the Consilium as an Apostate.'
You paged Teuton with 'That ok?'
Teuton pages: that would mess with your legacy
You paged Teuton with 'How?'
Teuton pages: oh ok, not you. different person.
You paged Teuton with 'So we're okay to have had Lucy introduced to the Consilium as an Apostate?'
Teuton pages: to be honest no. The post about apostates went up on December 17th. The post clarifying consilium status and what it means went up on January 9th. Now, February 3rd, because people are getting annoyed with you, you're asking me to retroactively make a major change to your PC. And I'm not feeling it.
Teuton pages: you've had time to ask to change these things
You paged Teuton with 'You realize I created this character Aug 2016, froze sometime in December of 2016, and didn't come back until like December 19th of 2017?'
You paged Teuton with 'Also, it's not becaue people are getting annoyed with me, but because this has -ALWAYS- been the concept of my character since I created it, that she would not publicly associate herself with the Guardians?'
Teuton pages: It's not a trait I'm willing to change at this point. You're welcome to go through the process ICly of leaving the guardians.
You paged Teuton with 'That's not very fair in the least.'
You paged Teuton with 'TBH, I'm really disappointed in you. I don't udnerstand what I did wrong to warrant having this sort of treatment, especially when I've done nothing rude, nor shady, nor anything else except want my character to not be publicly affiliated with the Guardians for every reason EXCEPT making PK easier or someshit. It was never my attention to annoy anyone, but simply just not be pegged as a GotV to common mage society.'
Teuton pages: I don't have any problem with that, but this is the first i'm hearing of it. I hope you enjoy your new PC.
It has only been the concept of my character since day 1, it has only been a major aspect of any RP I have ever had with any Mage what so ever. It is clearly an aspect which is portrayed in any log in which I interact with any Mages, it is not something that just 'came out of the blue'. You can ask any Mage player I have ever interacted with, and they will all say that I have always had that in mind as part of my character, and that I have always very clearly in RP never mentioned my Order. But you can also assume you somehow know my character better than me, that you've never seen this though I doubt you've read every log that is tied to my character, if any at all, oh and you can also ask Bones, whom was the first person I RP'ed with when I unfroze that I made it clear I didn't want to be publicly associated with the Guardians. But no clearly, you're omnipotent and all-knowing, so I apologize. Guess I just don't know what I'm talking about. What ever, you can just know you've permanently removed a possible Mage player that actually wanted to get involved in things and bolster RP and get other people involved in plots and the like.
You paged Teuton with 'I just want to point out that this is literally what you said in the +bbpost 112/12 which is why I didn't bring anything up about it until Brian's post "1) In general, members of the consilium know who you are, but maybe not what you are" So yeah.'
You paged Teuton with 'But clearly, this has been changed in a conversation about me, that I wasn't deemed worthy to be included in, and then I'm at fault for not bringing it up sooner when the +bbposting in question also says "3) At the least, people know your shadowname and that you exist, none of this 'I have status 1 but i'm a ghost shit'" Which is all I have ever presented to the Consilium, my Shadowname and that I exist. But no, sorry, I'm the one in the wrong, so I apologize.'
Teuton pages: in order to get status 1, in any consilia, you have to give your shadowname and order to the officers of that consilia. even if you say 'then I'll just meet daedalus,' daedalus has to then offer his words of recommendation that the consilia should accept you. your order becomes apparent in both situations unless you specifically tell us you're not participating in an order
Teuton pages: given your actions you were most definitely participating in some branch of the guardians. maybe not this one. but somewhere
You paged Teuton with 'Yet that isn't mentioned in +bbread 112/12 at all, AT ALL, so how could I dare think that I need to clarify it before I read on GotV something from Brian in where you have a conversation with other players but not me in the least AT ALL, when I'm the one that is apparently the source of the drama? I mean, I really am sorry that I didn't understand something that wasn't very clearly defined.'
Teuton pages: and no, it's not just you. everyone falls under the same expectations
You paged Teuton with 'And if that's also true, then I can't do the MOST THEMELY APPROPRIATE THING FOR GOTV, which is lie and say I'm an Apostate? Really, none of this makes sense, except to for some reason punish me for... what I don't know. All in all, I don't think ANY of this was handled with any respect towards me in any fashion what so ever. You expected me to read between the lines of a bbposting and ask if I was ok with what I've been RPing since 2016, and then a conversation is held without any thought of including me when I'm apparently the need to have that conversation, and then I am forced to either ICly leave my Order or abandon a major plot point of my character since I created it.'
Teuton pages: my post was not a rule. it was a reminder. it's stated on the wiki in the charter.
You paged Teuton with 'Okay, but your reminder very clearly cut and dry says 'maybe not what you are'. To be noted: that Charter was made before and has not been updated to reflect the existence of Apostates. It also says that the Heirarch can be the one you speak too, not that it is only a Councilor you speak to. And what have you to say in regards to having a conversation about me basically behind my back? Also I asked simply to have been introduced as an Apostate now that Apostates are allowed. My character has never held Consilium Status in any other part of the world, and the GotV do not just share their member lists with everyone all the time. I really don't understand why this is such a big deal except for some reason you don't want me to play Mage with my character the way I have had them set up since I created them and it has never been a problem until now?'
Teuton pages: look, seriously. That charter doesn't need to be updated for apostates. Apostates can be part of a cabal. And apostates can go up to the Hierarch and say 'yeah, i'm an apostate, gimme recognition. Will follow your precepts.' This is all it takes. I also don't know what conversation you think I had behind your back, but I haven't talked to anyone but headstaff about this situation. Also, you're asking for apostate status now that people are annoyed with you and asking to scour your soul. Now that the GOTV is telling you to scale back on things. We have logs. So no, it's not just 'i want to confirm an integral part of my PC.' I'm not in the business of using staff fiat to help you avoid IC consequences. Even if that wasn't the case, you have literally been interacting with the game as a guardian, from sending random relics back to some random guardian facility in germany or whatever it was, to posting on the guardian boards - THESE ARE IC BOARDS. So no, you can't just up and say 'I want to change my order now' because it changes the game for a lot of people.
You paged Teuton with 'WHEN HAVE I EVER SAID I WANT TO AVOID IC CONSEQUENCES?'
You paged Teuton with 'Also, my posting to the guardian boards have VERY CLEARLY shown that these messages are left IN THE SANCTUM'
You paged Teuton with 'And how can someone outside the GUARDIANS know I am sending things to a GUARDIAN VAULT without spying on me?'
Teuton pages: no one outside the guardians knows. you posted it to the IC GUARDIANS BOARD.
You paged Teuton with 'I'm not asking for Apostate status, I AM ASKING THAT MY PC HAS BEEN LYING TO THE ORDER. I AM READY AND WILLING TO ACCEPT ALL IC CONSEQUENCES FOR THIS CHOICE.'
You paged Teuton with 'Ahem'
You paged Teuton with 'not the order, the CONSILIUM'
You paged Teuton with 'I want Apostate Status in the EYES OF THE CONSILIUM and OTHER MAGES. I WANT -MY- ORDER TO KNOW I AM A GUARDIAN'
You paged Teuton with 'I WANT TO LET THE GUARDIANS SCOUR ME'
You paged Teuton with 'You paged Teuton with 'Also, it's not becaue people are getting annoyed with me, but because this has -ALWAYS- been the concept of my character since I created it, that she would not publicly associate herself with the Guardians?''
You paged Teuton with 'Please, tell me where in that I say that I want to have my Order removed and become an Apostate mechanically? Please, please explain to me where I fucked that up'
Teuton pages: I conferred with headstaff before answering. gonna have to say no.
You paged Teuton with 'What?'
Teuton pages: no, to the whole apostate in public, guardian in private thing
You paged Teuton with 'Oh, so you guys truly are just removing 80 percent of GotV theme?'
You paged Teuton with 'So what's the point of having playable Guardians? To be hated and avoided for literally no reason because we can't even play concepts outside publicly outed GotV?'
Teuton pages: gonna be honest, no one else has this issue with playing gotv that you do
You paged Teuton with 'Actually, a lot of people have this issue with GotV, that's why most people don't play GotV, it's why we on channel complain about having a hard time finding RP outside of GotV? And just because only 1 person wants to play a perfectly legitmate theme of GotV that theme cannot be explored or played, because not enough people want to play it? I'm sorry, do we have more GotV members than I'm aware of?'
Teuton pages: as it stands, you are the only person i've heard since I started staffing complain about any difficulty playing GOTV. if there are others who are having difficulty, please tell them to let me know so we can address it.
You paged Teuton with 'Also if this is true, then you need to tell Brian to reword his +bbpost, because apparently we cannot do what he suggests in +bbread 114/48'
You paged Teuton with 'My only difficulty is that I want to play a legitmate and theme appropriate GotV character, but I am not allowed to. Instead I have to play what YOU want me to play, which is a public face GotV that does not lie, does not hide in the shadows, and does not believe in breaking laws to save the Veil.'
You paged Teuton with 'I mean I can go break open the GotV order book right now and probably pull out a dozen or more passages that clearly show that Amastacia's concept as I have been playing her is perfectly in line with the theme of GotV. And that's what I want to play, it's not something that is 'rare' for GotV either. However, you guys are forcing me to play a concept I don't want to. I don't understand why, except what, you want FC to be a land of happy rainbows and sunshine where PCs don't lie to each other? I mean clearly it's not that, bc that is allowed, so what is wrong with the GotV? Why can we not play to some of the strongest and most repeated themes of our Order?'
You paged Teuton with 'I've repeated time and time again on channel and to people, that I have no interest in PK, I have been enjoying dicking around in plots and not being involved in Mages except for in what I do for basic interaction with the Mage community and to try and spread plot love to other Mages. So what is it? What can I not play this concept?'
You paged Teuton with 'Why*'
You paged Teuton with 'Also, this sort of says that there was a conversation had about this issue without me being privy to said conversation, taken from +bbread 114/48 "I hope this clarifies a few points. If you have any questions or concerns about the above, feel free to talk to staff about it but this summary comes after a lengthy discussion with them about what it means to be a spy within the scope of the Consilium and this Mush."'
You paged Teuton with 'I thought you understood GotV, heck you even on channel once said you would be amused to see a GotV sleeper in another Order apped for. So seriously, I don't understand why I am not allowed to play a perfectly legitimate and themely GotV character. All I'm asking for is a proper explination for it, other than 'Just no.' If its that there is something in the Charter that only public GotV can come to Fallcoast or otherwise prepare to be completely screwed, ok then. If its because you guys have decided to rewrite GotV lore in that they don't have nearly the high percentage of paranoid liars, infiltrators, and assassins, ok then. But so far all I'm getting is 'Well you want to play it, so we're not going to allow it because no one else wants to play that.''
Edit: Sorry, I did miss one, the following has been added to the log: You paged Teuton with 'What?'
I asked for my character to have been retroactively introduced to the Consilium as an Apostate. This was confused as me asking to be removed from the Guardians. I was then accused of attempting to avoid IC consequences which is the point in which I went ALL CAPS. I think there was some genuine misunderstanding in the log, but I also feel like there was some attempts to either shift blame or hide things. You will also note there is never an apology from Teuton for misunderstanding my intentions for starting the conversation.
Alzie last edited by
Hi, I am Teuton. In case that gives you context you wouldn't have otherwise had.
Not that this is a secret as it's listed here http://musoapbox.net/topic/48/alzie-s-playlist
This is all.
@alzie Let me know if there was anything else I missed, I believe I have correctly logged everything we both said.
Too long, stopped reading. Scanning shows you started shouting in all caps, though. I also have no sympathy for GOTV players who insist on doing the “I’m a secret GOTV”, non sense.
@cobaltasaurus Added a TL;DR. I started shouting in all caps to clarify what I was attempting to do when I was accused of trying to avoid IC consequences, which I was not. I in fact was more than willing to accept IC consequences. Not only to be scoured (and possibly killed) but to also have the IC consequences of what happens if you are caught lying to the Consilium about your Order affiliation.
Also "I'm a secret GOTV" is a major theme of GotV, I have made it clear time and time again in-game that my reasons for playing a "Secret GOTV" is not anything related to PK ambitions, I honestly don't give a shit about PK'ing.
That aside I’ve never understood the “No Apostate rule”, but I’ve also never understood the obsession people have with being one.
I wasn't really ever against the No Apostates rule. Honestly, people never played them like they're supposed to be played, and it makes Apostate a common thing that is just a-ok.
That said -- I'm also with Teuton. Seekrit Guardians are dumb, a pain in the ass for everyone involved, and generally not as workable as people would like to believe. Plus, that's not really how the GotV operates anyway. If it was, the other Orders would have wiped them off the map ages ago. I would have given the exact same ruling.
Alzie last edited by
@cobaltasaurus yeah, we don't have the no apostate rule anymore. was silly.
Plus, that's not really how the GotV operates anyway.
I'm sorry what? GotV is the assassins and secret police of Mage society. It is literally in their theme, they have nearly been wiped out by the other Orders on several occasions. Or maybe I'm just retarded and somehow everything that is written in the GotV I read wrong.
@alzie I would appreciate an apology for the assumption I was attempting to avoid IC consequences when that was not my intent in the least.
GotV is the assassins and secret police of Mage society. It is literally in their theme, they have nearly been wiped out by the other Orders on several occasions. Or maybe I'm just retarded and somehow everything that is written in the GotV I read wrong.
Yes and no. It's true that they are assassin-y and secret police-y, yes, in that they actively work to try and get mages to tow the line when it comes to using magic responsibly. But if you read them at all closer than a passing glance, you might realize that they do this pretty openly. The reason people fear the Guardians isn't because they're some secret boogeyman. It's because they're the boogeyman that's right in your face.
Nor is murder and espionage of other mages their go-to. Most often, killing is a last resort. And ostensibly done with Consilium buy in. Thus the entire position of Interfector.
What the guardians mostly do is clean up messes. Someone gets a little loose with magic, and they try and pick up the pieces. They protect the Veil. Thus, their name.
Maybe read that book again, and this time, maybe look at all the ways they operate openly within mage society.
@derp Because it doesn't also say that they infiltrate other Orders, assassinate Consilium officers and Order members, that they do in fact hide in the shadows? I've read GotV Order book cover to cover twice now. Yes, there are open GotV I know this, but the main concepts of my character and hiding their GotV membership had nothing to do with wanting to investigate and snoop on other Mages. It was infact to not have that activity associated with them at all, because they were forced to be a GotV or die.
because they were forced to be a GotV or die.
You've read the book three times now, and you don't know that this basically never happens? That's not how the Veils work. They're a willing sacrifice, and in the eyes of the GotV a holy calling, not something to be forcibly conscripted. That goes against their core ethos.
Your concept is flawed, staffers saw this, and said no. Now you wanna throw a fit on the forums because someone told you no. And people here seem to be in general agreement with the staff call.
Staff made a reasonable call here. Not liking the call doesn't mean the staff are corrupt.
@Derp Never said the staff were corrupt, and so far all I've asked for is an apology for the assumption that I was trying to avoid IC consequences. I also said I read the book twice, not three times. I mean really, if you're not going to read my posts why are you even here?
@derp Also, just because they were originally conscripted that way does not mean that my PC has not come to see the Truth and accepted the philosophy of the GotV as their own. My character had the Abyss-Marked flaw. So GotV came to them and said, listen kid, we can either kill you, scour you, or you can see if you can pass the Veils and join our cause where we can keep an eye on your and make sure you don't have that Mark for a reason.
My bad. I read 'twice' as 'thrice'. You're right, that mistake proves beyond a doubt that I just can't grasp the profound complexity of your argument.
As for why I'm here -- first, because I have been the one that had to make those calls, and deal with this sort of crap, and when a staffer is in that position, it's nice to have people tell them they made the right call.
Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, Mage is my favorite game. And it gets a terrible rep on WoD MU's precisely because of this kind of bullshit. People with only a barely passing understanding of the theme and rules want to make some kind of extra special snowflakey crap that goes against the grain of basically all the rest of the game, and try and do weird shit that's justified with nebulous logic that spins in a million directions, and we all suffer for it. So I will always call foul when I see it being done. I'm not against education, but when you're calling folks out for making a call, and essentially berating them for doing their job?
Disagree if you must. But it was reasonable.
TheOnceler last edited by
Am I the only person who read the topic and assumed Fallcoast was going to be hosting some kind of IC election?
@derp So again, I see you didn't read my post. So let me just state this simply for you. The GotV theme clearly makes it possible to make a character that does not publicly identify as a GotV member. The only thing I am seeking from this post is an apology for the assumption that I was trying to avoid IC consequences, and show that in the conversation I was having with this Staffer I in no way alluded to wanting to avoid IC consequences. (If anything, I was willing to accept MORE IC consequences. Though that might not be as obvious)
There, was that easy enough to follow?
Tinuviel last edited by
@magee101 You lost the right to an apology the second you started acting like a dick.
Don't act like a dick.
@tinuviel Alas, I am only human and being insulted tends to make me angry and sarcastic and dicklike.