Okay so this all started when I had a job that I said I didn't care about (the survival system, honestly I don't care either way I'm just there to RP. So my saying I didn't care caused a staff member to close the job with the reasoning that I had asked for it to be closed. (I hadn't. I said I didn't care about it.) So I opened a job asking about it being closed and if I could still do what the job was for. Nope! They were changing the system, I asked to have it closed and I'll have to wait. As I hadn't asked to have it closed. I got my post back with me... not saying I wanted it closed. But I'm also told that second staffer would have assumed I meant to have the job closed too. At which point i said if staff was going to assume I asked to have the job closed when I didn't, I guess I really don't care about who deals with my jobs, So now the first staffer doesn't want to deal with me because I asked he not deal with my jobs if he was going to assume - Sorry, he comes up with great ideas but being that touchy does not make a good staffer.
So prior to this I had asked about changing my character since the person I had come to play with changed splats when Mages came along. I took some time deciding what was going to happen but in the meantime the job was taken up by Pestilence. The new survival system went out, I put my action in, got a mav on the job and then it was transferred over to all staff. So pretty much since the whole job being closed thing I've pretty much felt the cold shoulder in general, and when I noticed that the job had been moved to allstaff, I spoke up about it.
<Public> Pestilence says, "Gehenna has been running a lot of stuff. If we're up and able, just poke us."
<Public> Myrapokes. "I'd like some weird dreams, please."
<Public> Casamir thud.
<Public> Pestilence says, "That's a Gehenna plot, and he is asleep atm. Toss in a job with his name or dreams in the title."
You paged Pestilence with 'I meant more for a lead up to changing. Honestly though, I sort of feel like I'm being shut upt, tbh.'
You paged Pestilence with '*out'
Pestilence pages: You requested Gehenna not handle your jobs and I have not had time to do much of anything.
You paged Pestilence with 'And I also said in the job that the only reason I asked for him not to handle them was because he closed it saying I asked when I hadn't. Since you said you would have as well I really don't are at this point.'
You paged Pestilence with 'And even the survival ones are being sent to allstaff which is just silly, really.'
Pestilence pages: well, you kind of burned a bridge with him. and thank you for judging how we do it without knowing the why.
You paged Pestilence with 'Yes, don't really agree with staff who close a job saying it was requested when it wasn't.'
You paged Pestilence with 'But you said you would have so I don't have much choice. And the survival was sent out by him and changed. No judging there.'
Pestilence pages: well. then we shall have to disagree. because when someone says in 3 ways they dont want to be involved, that says: they dont want to be involved so theres no reason for the job
You paged Pestilence with 'I said I don't care. When I ask to close a job, I ask for it to be closed. Please don't put words into my mouth or assume either.'
Pestilence pages: i ask the same of you
You paged Pestilence with 'So I'm not being shut out then?'
From afar, Pestilence stares
Pestilence pages: Gehenna doesnt want to deal with you. I dont really want to deal with you. HOWEVER. the REASON it has sat is because my rl is insanely busy. I work 40+, famine works 40+, we have 1 car, 2 kids and im apparently developing an a personal sick issue which doesn't have anything to do with the game issue that has been keeping me in bed in pain for 12 hours a day before I drag my sorry sick ass to work.
You paged Pestilence with 'I don't know how the system works. I just know it changed. I'm not judging. I mean the general feeling I've had for the past couple of weeks, since the job was closed. Okay, Gehenna doesn't want to deal with me. I am partially being shut out. You don't either. Can I just go through cgen again and change the sheet and RP I'll even make a different bit and make the changes with the job with my spends on it. That way nothing will have to be done on your end but approving and the xp spends.'
Long distance to Pestilence: Myra is still off sick too so can understand that. I don't need a plot.
Pestilence pages: driving famine to work
You paged Pestilence with 'Well you shouldn't post and drive. I can re-send or @mail'
Pestilence pages: you are welcome to cgen a wolf, freeze myra, and roll some of the xp over. just like anyone else.
You paged Pestilence with 'I'll wait then. Just trying to make it easier on you.'
Pestilence pages: at this rate, a cgen app might get done faster cause my rl is shit
You paged Pestilence with 'Faster sure.But I don't really want to loose any of the xp.'
Pestilence pages: 6.5 isnt much
You paged Pestilence with 'It is when it's pretty slowly gained.'
Long distance to Pestilence: Myra only suggested it to make the transition easier, not just the story bit, but you;ll have to make more sheet adjustments. But I will wait.
Pestilence pages: nods
Pestilence pages: pretty sureyoull haveto be wiped, and hand statted or wiped and recgenned anyway
You paged Pestilence with 'Shouldn't with Theno's code. It's just all staff side once someone has been approved.'
You paged Pestilence with 'Although sheet/check doesn't work after.'
You paged Pestilence with 'Or you can approve, they make changes and then reapprove'
You paged Pestilence with 'er unapprove'
Pestilence pages: yeah i have to ask theno. though we may go with hand statting so the base sheet stays the same. have to talk to the others about whether itd be a complete rebuild or just an add-on.
You paged Pestilence with 'Depends on how much work you want to do really.'
Pestilence pages: aka we havent done it before. i was going to with Pestilence PC and opted to retire her and just cgen a new bit.
You paged Pestilence with 'Changing the sheet is just the same as cgen.'
Pestilence pages: yeah, but going from a ghoul to a wolf wouldn't, say, change your skills or attributes, etc.
Long distance to Pestilence: Myra used Theno code a long time. There's a reason why they always had me do rebuild the chars. Ask Obsequey.
You paged Pestilence with 'IT changes the template things, yeah.'
Pestilence pages: yes. but not the base stats cgenned for the original template.
You paged Pestilence with 'It wouldn't change that, no.'
You paged Pestilence with 'Wouldn't change any xp spends either.'
Pestilence pages: right
You paged Pestilence with 'It would change what would be on the sheet, so the disciplines would go, but it would have room for gifts instead.'
Pestilence pages: yup
Long distance to Pestilence: Myra would remove the disciplines out of habit but no need to. The reason sheet/check doesn't work is because there's usually xp spends on there as well.
You paged Pestilence with 'Like I said, it's pretty much how much work you want to do vs how much you want the players to do.'
Long distance to Pestilence: Myra can't honestly see people changing splats having to lose xp as something that would interest people though, tbh.
Pestilence pages: depends on the person i guess.
You paged Pestilence with 'If changing splats on grid means loosing xp, than you can close out the job. She'll stay a ghoul with PC as an NPC.'
Pestilence pages: and there you go being assumptive again
Pestilence pages: just. stop.
You paged Pestilence with 'I'm not assuming anything, I've been talking about changing on grid this whole time. My comment about losing xp changing was because of that. What would you assume by your answer?'
Pestilence pages: so its ok for you to assume but not us?
Pestilence pages: but i was thinking of the wb i had tbat i froze for making a new.wolf
Pestilence pages: so. IT DEPENDS ON THE OERSON
You paged Pestilence with 'Yeah, actually as staff when it comes to closing jobs and stuff yes. Closing a job because you assume that's what a person means? Not a great staffer.'
Pestilence pages: as to whether it is worth it or not.
Pestilence pages: you know what? i dont think this is working out
You paged Pestilence with 'Yes, making a new character or changing on grid is different.'
Pestilence pages: i dont have time or energy for this happening every time we talk, and G is a burnt bridge
You paged Pestilence with 'so you're asking me to leave?'
You paged Pestilence with 'Okay, I'll let PC know and then I'll go.'
Pestilence pages: you are argumentative and frustrating and the only one of us willing to deal with you is too exhausted to spend hours going round and round and beating dead horses.
You paged Pestilence with 'p If you so. But if you guys can't handle people complaining about jobs being closed, when they weren't asked to be, if that burns a bridge, there really isn't much to say. Sorry I don't like your survival system? But if you guys as staff are going to be this touchy about these sorts of things, i expect you'll have more conversations like these.'
I've been doing this for a while and never really had to deal with such touchy staff members. And yes, people who warned me about the lead staffer, have at it. I totally deserve an I told you so or three.
The idea is good. The execution, not so much so. Sure they had a bump of people when they announced mage but it's pretty much the same people who came in together playing with each other. The channels are pretty much dead. Just don't disagree with them, and be careful what you do say or they will close a job on an assumption and ask before they close it.
Oh and don't ask to move a build. Because there is no building nexus things were linked right away to the grid, and asking to have a link moved since a building hadn't actually been desced or used yet mean Pestilence will think you want the building to physically grow feet and move to a new location. Because that makes sense.
TL;DR Good place to sandbox the apocalypse. Don't change on grid, they don't even know how to do it. I'm still off work sick and all I want to do is play pretendyfuntime, not argue with staff that moving a build does not mean a building became sentient and walked to a new place.
For starters, it's cute that the log is edited in places to snarkily fill in gaps that were somehow deemed unworthy of mention but to make me look bad.
The build job - keep in mind the doctor's room and the building she asked for and had been promising a desc for had been on-grid for over a month without a description. Part of trying to get a new build pushed was getting the desc upfront, and with the changes to the system, I had to do a bunch of reparenting and it would have been easier just to redig a new building. In the middle of the job there was some miscommunication and Gehenna had Obsequy relink the build. I didn't actually approve of the move. Ever.
===============================| View Job 44 |===============================
Bucket: REQ Due On: Sun Sep 04 14:23:54 2016
Title: Building Move? Status: Green (New)
Opened On: Thu Sep 01 14:23:54 2016 Assigned To: Gehenna
Opened By: Myra
[1+] Myra added on Thu Sep 01 14:23:54 2016:
So yes, I know, I haven't desced it yet! (Or the physician's room in Steve's area) but I was wondering if I could move the building location. Ash is frozen and he was the one who wanted to go after Steve and Casamir was asking about how attached I was with the penthouse and if I might think about moving to Clinton so... puppy eyes
[3+] Pestilence added on Thu Sep 01 14:31:32 2016: Mail sent to Myra:
I don't think a building can migrate, but you're welcome to set up shop elsewhere. Whwn you're ready, submit a request and include the descs and rooms you'll want and where on the grid. If you want me to remove the rooms previously built, let me know.
[4+] Myra added on Thu Sep 01 14:35:14 2016: Eh. I don't know. On one hand I'm just going to put the descs in the new building. On the other hand we've built up a lot for the survival thingy so I'll have to think about it.
[5+] Myra added on Thu Sep 01 14:40:57 2016: Yeah, might as well delete it, like I said I'll just use the descs in the new place anyway.
[6+] Pestilence added on Thu Sep 01 14:56:21 2016: Mail sent to Myra:
With the new rules we're testing out, the only rooms to have stats will be the main room of a neighborhood. E.G.: HK - Hell's Kitchen, will hold all of the stats for that neighborhood.
[7+] Myra added on Thu Sep 01 14:57:52 2016: Okay, I'll just desc it in Clinton then.
[8+] Myra added on Thu Sep 01 15:14:21 2016: BTW, I didn't mean actually physically move the building, just move the link from HK to clinton. Seems like less work than destroying and re-digging.
[9+] Pestilence added on Thu Sep 01 15:15:50 2016: Mail sent to Myra:
A building cannot get up and walk from HK to Clinton. It isn't a code issue.
[10+] Myra added on Thu Sep 01 15:20:02 2016: I didn't expect it to get up and move. I just figured since I hadn't put a desc on it yet, and it hasn't been used in RP you could move the exits and then I would get the desc in to you when it was done. But if that's an issue then I will just put the desc on the new place. Go ahead and destroy the ones in HK.
[11-] Obsequy added on Thu Sep 01 20:36:21 2016: I've moved the build to Clinton (#49).
[13+] Gehenna added on Thu Sep 01 20:56:49 2016: Mail sent to Myra:
Pestilence has convinced me of otherwise, and the change is fine. The build has been moved to Clinton, but the caveat is that those collected stats are not being moved over. This is the ruling as it pertains to other requests for such (people moving their points due to the change the system). Beyond that, the build should be desced just as a PC would need to be desced. All that said, moving it from one square is fine, but please desc it asap. Do you have any more questions on things, Myra?
[15+] Myra added on Fri Sep 02 04:32:08 2016: TBH, I don't care about the stats for the survival system at all and wanted it moved because it hadn't actually been used at all IC. Although to be fair I think if I can't use the collected stats they should be wiped out because that gives an unfair advantage to Steve. But I really don't mind starting over as if I were a new character since I really don't plan on using the system. Although I have to say it's not entirely fair as people who had no territory had still had actions and mine are effectively being wiped out for no real reason as the building hasn't been used yet. Honestly wiping them out just means I really won't bother with the system, honestly. Thank yu for moving the exit.
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This job is important, it's why the survival system job was closed. Note the last entry made by @Insomnia. The second job relates to this.
===============================| View Job 26 |===============================
Bucket: REQ Due On: Thu Sep 08 08:42:32 2016
Title: Job closed? Status: Green (New)
Opened On: Mon Sep 05 08:42:32 2016 Assigned To: +allstaff
Opened By: Myra
[1+] Myra added on Mon Sep 05 08:42:32 2016:
My survival system job was closed with the reasoning by my request of not using the system. - I said I didn't care, not that I wouldn't be using it. Also my main HD died so...
[2+] Pestilence added on Tue Sep 06 01:00:45 2016: Mail sent to Myra:
As you have requested Gehenna not touch your jobs, so he cannot reply to this, do you want me to close it?
[3+] Myra added on Tue Sep 06 01:07:43 2016: No, I would like the resources job re-opened. Either posting here or another query as it shouldn't have been closed in the first place. Either way I need the link again as this is not my main computer.
[4+] Pestilence added on Tue Sep 06 01:09:09 2016: Mail sent to Myra:
As per bb1/37, the system is changing and the new jobs don't go out until 9/11.
[5+] Myra added on Tue Sep 06 01:31:26 2016: Yes, but this was a job that was opened before that and closed incorrectly. So what you're saying is I basically loose that action because it was closed incorrectly? If that's the case, yeah, close this job, obviously I can't do anything with it because... reasons.
[6+] Pestilence added on Tue Sep 06 01:32:55 2016: I'm not sure how to apply 'I don't care' to the survival system. It isn't one if the options for how to use actions. I would have closed it, too.
[8+] Myra added on Wed Sep 07 03:00:36 2016: The I don't care was to losing the resources. I didn't say Please close this job.
[9+] Myra added on Wed Sep 07 03:01:03 2016: And if you would have closed it too, I still would have opened a job because it was closed in error.
[10+] Pestilence added on Wed Sep 07 03:05:27 2016: Mail sent to Myra:
Let me quote your exact words to you, then:
"Myra added on Fri Sep 02 04:32:08 2016: TBH, I don't care about the stats for the survival system at all and wanted it moved because it hadn't actually been used at all IC."
" But I really don't mind starting over as if I were a new character since I really don't plan on using the system."
"Honestly wiping them out just means I really won't bother with the system, honestly."
Tell me again why we should not have closed that job. Tell me again how you suddenly want to use the system after declaring in a -single- entry on a job no less than 3 times that you don't want it, don't care, won't use it, and don't mind starting off like a brand new pc with the surrvival system.
I think we're done here.
[11+] Myra added on Wed Sep 07 04:29:04 2016: Actually just close this please.
[12+] Myra added on Wed Sep 07 04:32:37 2016: FYI I am aware of what I said, which wasn't please close this job. I actually have an excellent memory. If I wanted the job closed I would have said please close this job. Which I just did in my previous response. Thanks for interpreting my words for me though! Could to know what I was actually saying when I didn't say it! I will try to be more precise and exact in my words in the future and leave no room for interpretation.
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I'm still not sure how 'I don't want to be involved with this in any way shape or form' means, 'Totally leave my job open, I want to use the system!', but I was willing to write that off as a communications issue. However, since then, every conversation with her has devolved into 'Why won't Gehenna do my jobs?!' and general whining about being shut out when it is NO secret that my rl is incredibly busy, for the reasons listed above (even the ones hidden by snarky fill in log editing), and I have not had TIME to run a first change scene. I have stated this to her before. And when YET ANOTHER conversation devolved into this kind of behavior, I suggested that we might not be a good fit for her. That: 'this isn't working'.
I don't think we're touchy. I think we're proactive in fostering the kinds of attitudes and people we want playing on TDM.
I admit I only skimmed over the details in this thread but what occurs to me is pretty obvious.
@Insomnia, it doesn't sound like you trust staff on that game and/or that staff particularly wants you there. It's unclear to me which is the result of the other, and probably irrelevant, but walking away sounds like the best choice for everyone involved.
I don't think we're touchy. I think we're proactive in fostering the kinds of attitudes and people we want playing on TDM.
Be very careful when you use these words.
I'm sure you're aware that the situation could be handled differently. While the outcome may have been the best one, the road to get there appears to be fraught with miscommunication. I won't presume your experience in staffing, but my experience advises that it would have been just as easy to tell Myra that the matter needs to be shelved until the new system is in place, and the matter re-opened at that point.
I'm not a mistress of communication, and recall a situation where I completely misconstrued something that Pestilence was trying to tell me when I staffed on Reno. It was more sensible for me to accept that, and simply offer a re-do on everything.
Presuming that we understand someone else's desires is a bad thing to do, in general.
That said, I have no issue with staff on The Descent.
True, @Ganymede. Probably not the best words to use. We try to give plots and get things done. Gehenna has been pulling the cart while work and life are kicking my teeth in. Neither of us is very good at mincing words and we both prefer direct approaches.
For whatever it's worth, @Insomnia isn't banned, I just don't think we're a good fit. All we do, it seems, is go round and round and not make progress.
That dead horse gets beaten real good, it takes a lot of time, it ends in frustration, and I would rather put the time and energy I have for the game towards doing things /for the game/. Not arguing in circles about how a building that's been on grid for over a month shouldn't magically change square locations, or why we thought she didn't want to be involved in the survival system.
TNP last edited by
You all come off badly.
Only thing I edited out was personal information, and ooc things from the log. And I put PC instead of names.
And yes @Ganymede i don't really trust staff who close jobs with the reason that it was requested, when it wasn't and no effort was made to ask if that was what was meant.
I admit I'm not perfect, but at the same time I just want to RP and not have to deal with all that. I generally only play at one place at a time, so I put my effort there. If I'm not having pretendyfun times and there is a reason why, I'll usually say something first before just leaving. I've stopped just accepting everything and going with it, even if I'm unhappy; I only have so much time to waste it on that.
@Insomnia You come off like a real brat in this log, you realize.
You come off like a real brat in this log, you realize.
I'm pretty sure I'd sound awful if someone closed one of my jobs down for no or the wrong reason.
Still, as @Derp said: probably time to reflect upon what's going to make everyone happiest right now. Developing a game isn't easy; developing an off-screen influence system, like the Survival System, is fucking difficult.
It's clear to me the game is going through the throes of development. That means things will change and mistakes will be made.
@Ganymede - I'm pretty sure you would go to the one that closed the job and ask them what's up, rather than go to a different staffer and just request that the staffer not touch your jobs.
TNP last edited by
"I'm sorry. We misunderstood and it was closed by mistake."
You could have started off with that instead of circling the wagons.
I don't want to beat the same horse twice but... I honestly don't get it. Why would anyone play somewhere they're at the point they need to ask that a staff member stops looking at their +jobs? Either complain that the person in question did something very wrong (presumably that'd be the reason you feel that way) and wait to see how the real issue is handled, or if you already don't expect it to go anywhere it's already over.
It doesn't matter who's right or wrong, at that point just go.
For the record no, staff did not come out of this one smelling like roses either.
I'm pretty sure you would go to the one that closed the job and ask them what's up, rather than go to a different staffer and just request that the staffer not touch your jobs.
What I would do as the player is mostly irrelevant. The issue is whether someone might be salty that it happened, and I believe that there's cause to be salty here.
As @TNP suggested, there's no need to circle the wagons. If there's a problem, yo, just solve it / Then check out the beat while the DJ revolves it.
Saulot last edited by Saulot
@TNP I was the one that closed the job, and its associated staffer. The player in questioned stated in three different ways that they didn't want to mess with the survival system. That's fine and fair. I can even c/p the logs from the job in question that was closed. This led her to go to Pestilence, and request that I not handle her jobs and that she not be in anything that I run. Which, again, is fine and fair.
I'd moved on from it, and simply told Pestilence that I won't touch her stuff again unless it can't be avoided (the @dolist that's spammed for survival system jobs to every approved bit on the game). I got to see it a few times over with VASpider et al and a few other staffers when a player basically asks that you not mess with them or poke them about stuff, and the lesson I learned was it's best to leave it all the fuck alone unless it cant' be avoided.
Ice, ice baby.
@Arkandel basically stick around to play with someone. (My reasoning anyway.)
I admit asking someone not touch the jobs because they closed a job that wasn't asked to is a big leap to take without trying to work it out first. Just been burned by too much bad staffing to feel any urge to see if it happens again. It's pretty much happened any time I've overstayed before. Burn me once, shame on you, burn me for the 23rd time, shame on me. I just cut it off at burn me once now.
But you're right, leaving when you aren't having fun is usually a good way to go. I think there a lot of posts around here "Man I didn't like X game, but I liked who I played with, so I stayed". That's pretty much it.
Seems like a miscommunication with a heavy helping of overreaction on both sides, frankly.