Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...



  • This post is deleted!

  • Pitcrew

    @insomnia Do you mean the characters in costume, or the PLAYERS in costume?



  • Am I the only one who thinks it's a little skeevy to seek a discount (or, perhaps, a starving artist just in need of work, willing to do it for cheap) right off the top because the purpose of it is just for a hobby right now, you just got a job, but you hope this will turn into a bigger thing?

    Maybe I'm making too much out of this based on how I read it, but I would expect an artist to be paid fairly and normally for whatever's done and not lower any typical prices simply because this is just a hobby or whatever. Obviously you want it to become more than that.

    But, no harm in asking. Good luck!

    (And, yes, of course you should be willing to pay. Duh!)



  • @kanye-qwest Probably the players in costume... or the characters I guess if the real people don't want to give a picture... but I'm the only one out of who I'm thinking of that doesn't willingly show their face. I have an avatar of me but that's about it.

    Although now I have a picture in my head of a barbarian dressed as a magical girl...

    @Wolfs I'm sure some people might find it skeevy, but I long since stopped trying to please everyone all the time. I don't want a lot of detail, I don't want things like a background or anything like that, I don't want something someone is going to spend days on, and I can't afford $75 or whatever they are asking for each piece, and honestly even if I could, this project isn't worth that much to me. I'm not looking for someone whose primary income is their art, I'm looking for someone who can draw better than I can. For me skeevy is asking for it for free. YMMV.

    TBH I'll probably end up looking on Fiverr, I just wanted to put it out there with people I somewhat know first.


  • Coder

    @insomnia

    I demand tweed.

    That is all.


  • Pitcrew

    @insomnia If you're looking for someone to do 'portraiture', even if it is cartoonish, you're going to need to pay commission prices. I mean, you're going to need to pay whatever is asked for, anyway, or resort to upping your MS Paint skills. Drawing actual people is a lot harder than drawing tropes.


  • Pitcrew

    As an artist, I implore you: don't ask artists to devalue their work. I am sympathetic to the fact that you might not have a lot of cash right now but rather than asking for a discount, it would be better to scale back what you are asking for so it fits your budget.

    What you are asking for sounds like a fairly big deal from a work standpoint. So many people -- sooooo many -- treat art as something artists just love to do and that they are fine taking on commissions for free/low cost because of that love. But work is work and when people don't pay what art is worth? It just reinforces the notion that art isn't worth much.

    Also: giving the artist credit? That should not be a bonus or something to offer in lieu of payment. Giving them credit goes without saying.

    I don't doubt that you'll be able to find someone, somewhere, who will be able to give you what you want for the amount you want to pay. Unfortunately, there is always someone out there who is willing to devalue themselves. But come on. Don't be that person. The reason that there is a 'starving artist' stereotype is because people don't pay artists what their art is worth.

    Don't make artists starve.


  • Pitcrew

    I have to wonder if people have actual experience breaking into art as their day job. Undervalued work like this is sometimes the foot in the door that you desperately need.

    I've made the mistake before of scoffing at underpaid work, and have lived to regret it.

    In a perfect world we'd all be getting paid bunches for whatever, but in the real world if you're a beginner you need to suck it up at first. When you're established, you have the luxury of turning down work. I think this is how it goes for many other professions, not just art. With art it's even more acute because there are too many talented people out there, who are all much better than you. So suck it up and do any work you can find. And put in your absolute best regardless of the pennies you're being paid, because you never know what it may lead to.

    I'm speaking out because I've seen these attitudes time and again, I ate it up like an idiot, and regretted it. Only when I accepted shitty, "for exposure" gigs, I got asked for more and started getting established. That's when you get a phone call out of nowhere asking you to do shit you're honestly excited about.

    So, Insomnia, thank you for the ad and I hope you manage to get this made. :) I wouldn't expect professional quality for non-professional prices, but it doesn't seem you expect it either. So that's all good in my book.



  • @nightshade said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:

    I have to wonder if people have actual experience breaking into art as their day job.

    Yes. In a variety of media.

    Undervalued work like this is sometimes the foot in the door that you desperately need.

    And if somebody's a novice, or does it as a hobby alone for free because they enjoy it, cool. If they feel inclined to do something pro bono or at a discounted rate because they like the idea or want to do a friend a favor, also cool. If they want to take a low payment for exposure and promotion, cool. A lot of this does actually have a detrimental impact on professionals, but there is a level of 'it isn't on us to control what other people do because they want to be doing it' to suck up and deal about.

    Otherwise, don't assume that somebody voicing an opinion is a babe in the woods just because this discussion isn't happening on a professional art forum of some kind.


  • Pitcrew

    @surreality said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:

    A lot of this does actually have a detrimental impact on professionals, but there is a level of 'it isn't on us to control what other people do because they want to be doing it' either to suck up about it.

    You will never get professional work for not-professional prices. So it does not have a detrimental impact on actual professionals. I know that I was not capable of delivering professional quality when I was starting, and there's still tons of people who do it much better than me. I'm not upset about the clueless beginner who cuts down prices because I don't compete with his quality of work.

    Of course you'll always have people trying to undercut you, but newsflash: artists aren't a special unicorn in this regard. Everyone gets that experience in the working world.

    Otherwise, don't assume that somebody voicing an opinion is a babe in the woods just because this discussion isn't happening on a professional art forum of some kind.

    Sorry for your ego, but I will speak out when I see damaging attitudes. If you don't understand this perspective, then I have to wonder what fairy land you live in, and when I can move in.

    I also dislike the oh-so-common ganging up on someone on MSB just because they deigned to post something. Jeez, be glad someone's offering money for art for once.


  • Coder

    I honestly don't get the level of... crap, in this tread.

    This is how economics works. There's nothing unique to it in art.

    Person is willing to pay only so much; Other person is willing to accept pay of only so much. Quality will vary as his scale of pay rises.

    Its not doing some harm to "starving artists" to pay someone who has a lower quality, less-skill, to produce lesser work.

    I'm a coder, and I know what rates my experience and quality of work can expect. Someone offers less, its just not a job for me. But I also know there's whole realms of jobs paying more I'm simply not qualified for.

    This is what work is like. The buyer tries to pay as little as possible and their value-judgment is slanted one way. The seller wants to be paid as much as possible, and their value-judgment is slanted another way.

    Somewhere in the middle is agreement.



  • @nightshade said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:

    You will never get professional work for not-professional prices. So it does not have a detrimental impact on actual professionals. I know that I was not capable of delivering professional quality when I was starting, and there's still tons of people who do it much better than me. I'm not upset about the clueless beginner who cuts down prices because I don't compete with his quality of work.

    You speak for your own experience here and are extrapolating it to everyone else as though it's universal.

    It's not.

    Sorry for your ego, but I will speak out when I see damaging attitudes. If you don't understand this perspective, then I have to wonder what fairy land you live in, and when I can move in.

    My ego's just fine.

    Your view on this is colored by your own experience, and again, it is not universal.

    You tried to jump into things, apparently, as a clueless beginner, which is not the way everyone does things. The fairy land I live in is one in which some of us actually bothered to get really fucking good at what we do before ever dreaming of asking for a single dime to cover materials, let alone the rates we should be getting -- or possibly ever even showing it to anyone in the first place.

    So, again, stop universalizing your experience and slapping everybody else in the face with it like we're all ignorant of reality, because that's as ignorant as the blind adherence to 'you must charge or you're a horror'.

    I also dislike the oh-so-common ganging up on someone on MSB just because they deigned to post something.

    Have fun with that lance, Don Quixote.


  • Pitcrew

    @surreality said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:

    You speak for your own experience here and are extrapolating it to everyone else as though it's universal.

    It's not.

    Sure it's not. It's only universal for anyone's experience in the workforce, in any profession.

    You tried to jump into things, apparently, as a clueless beginner, which is not the way everyone does things. The fairy land I live in is one in which some of us actually bothered to get really fucking good at what we do before ever dreaming of asking for a single dime to cover materials, let alone the rates we should be getting -- or possibly ever even showing it to anyone in the first place.

    Now who's making assumptions?

    Yes, I tried to jump into a highly competitive professional field. Within one year, I managed to teach myself a profession people study at a university for 4-5 years. I managed to build up a portfolio-in-progress and get enough clients for it to be the main source of income. Within one year.

    And I still greatly regret feeling above some paygrades and scoffing at underpaid work. Because I could've done much more, much better, and gotten a lot more experience.

    While you were out there, trying to work up your craft while spending 8 hours a day doing something else and wasting your energy, I was being paid for doing art full-time and advancing in the profession.

    So I suppose my experience isn't universal necessarily, it just depends on how serious and desperate you are to make it your life.

    So, again, stop universalizing your experience and slapping everybody else in the face with it like we're all ignorant of reality, because that's as ignorant as the blind adherence to 'you must charge or you're a horror'.

    If you haven't gotten slapped in the face by the reality of the working world, then I suppose reading an opposing viewpoint must feel like one.



  • @nightshade Yeah, this is really not even worth responding to. You can keep insulting me if you want -- y'know, outside the Pit where that shit actually belongs -- but you keep missing the point and clearly refuse to engage in anything even resembling self-examination. That you keep compounding one erroneous assumption on top of the next suggests it's not remotely productive to take time away from show prep to further attempt to engage with you.


  • Pitcrew

    @surreality said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:

    @nightshade Yeah, this is really not even worth responding to. You can keep insulting me if you want -- y'know, outside the Pit where that shit actually belongs -- but you keep missing the point and clearly refuse to engage in anything even resembling self-examination. That you keep compounding one erroneous assumption on top of the next suggests it's not remotely productive to take time away from show prep to further attempt to engage with you.

    Please read more carefully. I have not insulted you once, I've only stated my general views.

    So you're incapable of continuing the discussion constructively. Yep, I think I'm done here.



  • @nightshade You mistake me for someone stupid enough to take that bait. You'd be wrong about that, too.


  • Coder

    @surreality said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:

    @nightshade Yeah, this is really not even worth responding to. You can keep insulting me if you want -- y'know, outside the Pit where that shit actually belongs -- but you keep missing the point and clearly refuse to engage in anything even resembling self-examination. That you keep compounding one erroneous assumption on top of the next suggests it's not remotely productive to take time away from show prep to further attempt to engage with you.

    Not wanting to jump into this fight because it can only hurt me, but man, @surreality ... of anyone between the two of you and @Nightshade who is making this personal and about insults, its you.

    Please pull back and re-examine: you two clearly have different experiences. You're taking the other's as an insult. That's kinda fucked up.



  • @ixokai Condescendingly asserting that somebody lives in a fairy land if they have a different professional experience is pretty insulting, but YMMV.

    ETA: Talking as though s/he is the sole voice of experience on the matter is also pretty obnoxious, because there are actually a number of professional artists posting here. Again, YMMV, but I've been working professionally in the arts for a long damn time now, in, as stated, a variety of media. Some things? Yep, went precisely as he describes: pick up something as a lark and within a year, holy shit, it's my job. That's not the only way even that experience goes down, however. The steadfast refusal to accept this is even possible is head-desk-worthy.

    Beyond that? Different media deal with different issues. Some of the attitudes described can fuck with some media more than others.


  • Pitcrew

    I will go back on my words somewhat, to temper the discussion - I do actually feel grateful when people stand up for artists and say there should be fair wages. Because without that support, it would be much harder to find a standpoint from which to argue for decent pay.

    However, I feel it's unfair to pile up on someone who offered paying work in this community. How many people will do that again, after they saw Insomnia's experience?

    I also thought it would be useful to share my perspective, since it might be helpful and refreshing to someone trying to break into the art world. Don't need to repeat my mistakes if you can learn from them.


  • Coder

    @surreality said in Looking for an Artist, actually willing to pay...:

    @ixokai Condescendingly asserting that somebody lives in a fairy land if they have a different professional experience is pretty insulting, but YMMV.

    Kind thought, No. But man, you're reacting like this is rendering your whole being invalid. Its just a bit much. Ya'll are disagreeing on economics, and your perspective experiences in a field. The world here, not ending.


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